Transcript:
[00:00:00] The Buddhist psychology is hard to connect to. It's counterintuitive for most of us,  
[00:00:15] and it's emotionally difficult to approach really connecting to the psychology. It feels  
[00:00:23] kind of threatening sometimes for many of us. That can make it kind of hard. It can  
[00:00:32] become an obstacle to it, learning to see through things. This whole idea of instead  
[00:00:39] of running and disconnecting, perhaps it would be more useful to actually go into, to actually  
[00:00:45] connect with, to actually be willing to sit and fire a little bit of your own mind. That  
[00:00:55] seems like it's not a good idea from our everyday perspective. It seems counterproductive. It's  
[00:01:04] definitely counterintuitive. Yesterday I heard one of my mentors has prostate cancer, a clinical  
[00:01:18] mentor of mine. My wife found out one of her mentors actually died, and this morning there  
[00:01:27] was a massive earthquake in Chile, and there are tsunami warnings up and down the Pacific  
[00:01:33] Coast, including Hawaii. And my usual reaction to that is that it's like inconvenient somehow,  
[00:01:49] and it's too much, and I don't really want to connect to it. I don't really want to connect  
[00:01:57] to it. If I connected to it, it's almost like I would also have to connect to the fact that things  
[00:02:04] like that can happen to me at any time. And I don't like that. It bothers me. I'm uncomfortable  
[00:02:17] with it. And so I don't really connect to it. I might give it some thought and pay it some  
[00:02:25] attention, but not really. Mostly it's defensive. Mostly it's reflective. Mostly it's kind of like  
[00:02:32] going in the opposite direction, away from that, for the most part. And the Buddha's only message  
[00:02:42] about this, and the message from Buddhist psychology is that you would feel better if you stopped  
[00:02:48] doing that. You would just start to feel better. So if you actually just slowed down long enough  
[00:02:55] to begin to connect to the pain that's really inherent in life sometimes, if you ceased  
[00:03:04] going in the other direction, you would just begin to feel a little bit better. But that's  
[00:03:11] very hard for us to do, because if I don't go in the other direction, that means I really  
[00:03:14] need to connect to it. That means I would actually think about the people who today  
[00:03:23] have lost everything. I would actually be willing to open my mind and my heart around  
[00:03:29] that. I would be willing to open my mind and my heart to death, and to the basic reality  
[00:03:38] of impermanence and interdependence. We're all connected. And I'm not some independent  
[00:03:45] thing that is somehow immune from these things. I would have to admit that there's pain inherent  
[00:03:53] in life, in my life maybe even. And I'd have to be willing to sit with it or connect to  
[00:03:59] other people in their moments of pain. And that's uncomfortable. I don't know if I'm  
[00:04:09] willing to do it. I really don't. So the Buddhist thing was like, well, if you did that, you  
[00:04:16] would understand compassion. You would begin to understand that it's not some syrupy kind  
[00:04:25] of saccharine thing where you wish people well. It's actually beginning to feel what  
[00:04:30] they feel. Because you're in the same boat that they are. And you're not up here and  
[00:04:36] you're not down here. It's eye to eye. And it feels kind of like touching an open wound  
[00:04:41] sometimes. And from my current perspective, that's asking a lot. But from the perspective  
[00:04:52] of Buddhist psychology, that's actually going in the direction of mental health. That's  
[00:04:58] actually like ceasing to tell so many stories that keep me separate from you. Ceasing to  
[00:05:06] create so many belief systems that keep me separate and distinct from you. And all the  
[00:05:11] things that you go through that I wish and hope I never do. It would just be like breaking  
[00:05:18] those walls down. And so it would help me connect to all of my brothers and sisters.  
[00:05:24] And sometimes that means I need to feel the same pain they do and connect to it on the  
[00:05:29] fact that I'm just like you. That really there's no difference in any substantial and meaningful  
[00:05:37] way. I mean, once you get past skin color and sexual orientation and gender and culture  
[00:05:43] and all of these kind of surface-y variables, the core experience of me and everybody else  
[00:05:50] in this room is the same. And you know, that's kind of hard to do from this deluded perspective  
[00:06:01] that I have right now. Which is that I am different. And that to some extent those things  
[00:06:07] won't happen to me. Or they'll only happen to me when I'm totally ready for them to happen.  
[00:06:15] And stories like that give me this illusion of safety and control. Instead I might just  
[00:06:22] be like, if I'm willing to connect to all of it as it is, without adding or subtracting,  
[00:06:28] I'm just willing to connect to it, to you, that feels risky. I don't know if I want to  
[00:06:35] do that. And so the message from Buddhist psychology is like, I don't know if I want  
[00:06:41] to do that, that whole energy there, that's why you suffer so much. That's basically it.  
[00:06:50] Back to the equation we talked about yesterday. Suffering equals pain times resistance. Pain  
[00:06:56] is unavoidable. It's inescapable. But suffering on the other hand, like all the ways that  
[00:07:03] we exaggerate and build it and bring it into whole lifestyles based on suffering, that's  
[00:07:11] totally unnecessary. You can learn to eliminate that completely. That's the message of Buddhist  
[00:07:20] psychology. Pain on the other hand, not really. Like as long as you're in a human body and  
[00:07:27] you have a human existence, there will be pain. There's just no way around that. But  
[00:07:35] you know, by how much you resist, you can control the experience of suffering. You can  
[00:07:41] minimize it or maximize it, depending on how much you resist it. So I mean, if you were  
[00:07:51] just willing to be present with the loss and the grief and the disorientation and the  
[00:07:57] confusion that exists today for so many millions of people, you would just feel better. You  
[00:08:06] wouldn't be so scared. You wouldn't have to spend all this mental energy creating stories  
[00:08:13] about how that's not you and it's not going to happen to you or anybody that you love  
[00:08:18] and being defensive and creating armor. So you wouldn't have to exert all that energy  
[00:08:23] doing that stuff until you just be more genuine. Authenticity. Something we recognize in  
[00:08:36] clinical psych as being a core component of mental health going all the way back to Carl  
[00:08:43] Rogers in the 50s. Authenticity. An authentic self. Like you'd be moving in that direction.  
[00:08:54] And that would be good. Like it wouldn't hurt so much. You'd just be calmer, more stable,  
[00:09:00] more relaxed. Not needing to cling onto some things and be really averse and refute other  
[00:09:08] things. Like you wouldn't have to do that so much. And then you might really be skillful.  
[00:09:14] You might really be able to improve the quality of your life and the quality of the lives  
[00:09:20] of those around you, including the people you love. You might be able to do more of  
[00:09:26] that. And that would be good too. Because we know again from a psychological perspective,  
[00:09:35] what is the basic orientation of depression? It is withdraw, isolation. It is like getting  
[00:09:44] smaller and smaller and smaller. It's cutting ties and withdrawing and becoming more and  
[00:09:51] more isolative. And that feels like crap, right? That's like the foundation of depression  
[00:10:01] is there. And so like what would be on the opposite end would be like connection, increased  
[00:10:07] connectivity, a recognition of interdependence. Like some sense of concern for the well-being  
[00:10:18] of others. A desire to improve the quality of their life. You go into things like AA,  
[00:10:26] Alcoholics Anonymous, was developed in 1939. It's been so profoundly successful because  
[00:10:32] primarily it's really about getting out of you and ceasing to like withdraw and build  
[00:10:39] walls. It's really about connecting. It's really about being of service and getting  
[00:10:46] your minds to the point where that kind of freely flows. Why would something like that  
[00:10:52] keep a guy who can't stop drinking sober? Why would that be? Sounds like very mystical  
[00:11:02] to us maybe. But in actuality it's not. It's really quite practical. It makes a lot of  
[00:11:09] sense. So this stuff is complicated. And there's a lot to it. We're talking about dynamics  
[00:11:18] that were fleshed out and really created 2600 years ago. And have been refined over  
[00:11:25] countless generations of contemplatives. Including our culture now has its refinement of these  
[00:11:33] ideas. Psychologists and doctors of various kinds. Practitioners of various kinds. So  
[00:11:41] last night I kind of felt like people were getting a little overwhelmed with it. It's  
[00:11:46] almost too much material. I can't soak it all in. Which is okay. I mean half the stuff  
[00:11:54] that you hear today that you find to be useful and that you'd be interested in learning more  
[00:11:59] about, you'll forget. It just won't stay in your head. So then you learn more. You go  
[00:12:08] back to another one or you read a book or find a teacher or do whatever. So it's okay.  
[00:12:16] So the stuff starts getting overwhelming for you, right? And it's like too much and it's  
[00:12:21] starting to get, or whatever. Or you're not connecting to it and you feel bored or whatever  
[00:12:27] the deal is. You can like breathe into those things. Just make it okay. It's okay to feel  
[00:12:33] overwhelmed and like you're not getting all of it. It's totally okay. I felt that way  
[00:12:39] for most of my life. So before we do a session, does anyone have questions? Things they'd  
[00:12:47] like to flesh out? This is really the most interesting part of it is when you guys kind  
[00:12:53] of like, it becomes more interactive and personal to you maybe.  
[00:12:59] I have a question on pain and suffering. I know we both have, we have that, but I have  
[00:13:06] a thought about pain. Pain can be, depending on how you interpret it, it's a different  
[00:13:11] idea, but pain necessarily isn't bad. I mean if you look at pain for the body, you know  
[00:13:20] it says, you know it's just telling you there's something wrong. So it can be good. So a lot  
[00:13:27] of it is based on how you interpret it.  
[00:13:31] Yeah, it's true. So like if you look at that basic equation again, right? It's suffering  
[00:13:36] equals pain times resistance. And so there is pain. Yeah. I mean there's pain when someone  
[00:13:42] you love dies. There's pain when you go to the doctor and he tells you you have cancer.  
[00:13:46] There's pain when you look in the mirror and see wrinkles and you have like emotional,  
[00:13:50] afflictive emotional reactivity to that. Right? There's pain around that stuff. Sure. But  
[00:13:56] if you have a realistic view of getting over having wrinkles and saying this is what's  
[00:14:03] happening, it's how you interpret that. You can't stop it. But if you embrace it. Yeah.  
[00:14:09] Okay, so I think that's like the nutshell version of Buddha's message, basically. It's like  
[00:14:16] acceptance is the deal here. It's like the more deeply you can accept the realities of  
[00:14:22] human life, the easier it will be to navigate it. The more skillfully you'll be, the more  
[00:14:28] compassionate you'll be, the more grounded in loving kindness and equanimity. And then  
[00:14:34] it'll become kind of joyous. Even making effort to meditate and to learn and to help other  
[00:14:39] people will become a joyous thing, right? Whereas maybe now it's not. It feels like
[00:14:44] Work. It feels like I've got to do something, right? It feels more like that. It'll stop  
[00:14:50] feeling so much like that and it'll start to become more flowing. Yeah, I think when  
[00:14:56] you take it forward, you just go on a downward spiral. But if you can stop and look at it  
[00:15:03] realistically and grasp it and look at it and become part of it, and it doesn't take  
[00:15:09] control of you. Yeah. So like real compassion. It's useful to ask that there's this concept  
[00:15:20] from the Buddhist perspective of near and far enemies. So the near enemy of an emotion  
[00:15:27] like compassion, meaning the thing that's close to it that kind of looks like it and  
[00:15:32] that is often mistaken for it, is pity. Pity is the near enemy of compassion. And what  
[00:15:39] is the difference between pity and compassion? Do you think? It's how you interpret it. It's  
[00:15:47] the same message, you know, how you perceive it. If I'm pitying somebody, I don't think  
[00:15:52] it will happen to me. I'm pitying them. Okay. I'm not identifying with them. So there's  
[00:15:57] some separateness. There's a separate. Yes. It's better. So there's separateness plus  
[00:16:04] you're up here and they're kind of down here. I'm pitying them. Yeah. It's like you poor  
[00:16:11] bastard, you know. I'd like to help you. In fact, I will help you. Then you kind of like  
[00:16:18] it's an ego stroke that I'm going to give you $10 and it's like this big thing, right?  
[00:16:27] It kind of like reminds me of the New Testament in a way, like Christ saying a rich man has  
[00:16:32] as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel through the eye of a needle, right?  
[00:16:36] It's like make a big show of giving him $20 and God, I'm wonderful. I'm really great.  
[00:16:44] We all have a tendency sometimes, right? Yeah, sure. So if that's pity then, so like pity  
[00:16:51] is up here kind of looking down on and there's some sense of like separation, right? And  
[00:16:57] that's mistaken for compassion, like pretty frequently. Then compassion would be something  
[00:17:05] more like this, right? Where you're just eye to eye and you're connected. Which is,  
[00:17:14] you know, that's asking a lot. This is pretty easy. This is what we do kind of following  
[00:17:20] up a lot. This is our natural state, right? This on the other hand, you know, that takes  
[00:17:29] some work. Is there a difference between compassion and empathy? What do you think?  
[00:17:35] Yeah, I do think there is. What's the difference? I think someone can be compassionate in a  
[00:17:42] consistent way. I mean someone can give to an AIDS project and be really opposed to homosexuality  
[00:17:50] or, you know, free sexuality. I think you can be compassionate and empathic. I mean  
[00:17:58] what comes to mind for me, if like I was very anti-gay and went out of my way to give money  
[00:18:05] to a gay and lesbian center or an AIDS organization or whatever, that would be like, it's almost  
[00:18:11] a way to cultivate compassion. It's almost a way to like try to open my heart a little  
[00:18:16] bit around my stuckness and closed offness, right? Depending on why I was doing it. Like  
[00:18:22] if I was aware of that stuckness and I wanted to work with it.  
[00:18:26] I think compassion can be a really good reference. A lot of ego and sometimes empathy really  
[00:18:36] puts stuff in your face. You know, from a Buddhist perspective, like compassion is actually  
[00:18:47] a very, very humble thing. And it is empathic. But it's not like overly identified with the  
[00:18:55] pain that it's connecting to. Nor is it like threatened by the pain and going in the other  
[00:19:01] direction and verging on disconnection. It's somewhere right in the middle. It's right  
[00:19:07] in the middle of those. Between like overwhelming over-identification and disconnection and  
[00:19:12] apathy. It's like right in the center. So maybe just look at the compassionate people  
[00:19:19] that we tend to typically admire. Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha,  
[00:19:27] all these characters throughout history, the Dalai Lama. They're very humble people  
[00:19:33] for the most part. And they appear to never get burned out. They appear like Mother Teresa  
[00:19:41] never really appeared to get burned out with it. At least not overtly. And she was able  
[00:19:48] to be with the suffering and connect to it, sickness and death, on a regular basis, all  
[00:19:54] the time, 24-7. And was never, didn't seem to really be in the position of like getting  
[00:20:00] overwhelmed and like frying around that and getting very burned out around it. Same thing  
[00:20:07] is true with the Dalai Lama. Same thing is true with MLK and Gandhi. And like why would  
[00:20:13] it be that, say if I'm working in a sex offender clinic or I'm working in an ER or I'm working  
[00:20:21] in like some of these places that I feel like so overwhelmed and kind of fried and burned  
[00:20:27] out around that work a lot. Right? I mean the Buddhist answer would be it's because  
[00:20:32] I've lost my orientation to compassion. It's started to become pity. Or it's started to  
[00:20:39] become apathy. Right? It's verging to like one of the near or far enemies. And it's time  
[00:20:44] for me to reorient. You know, psychologically. So the overall message is like these are skills.  
[00:20:53] Right? You've got someone, a doctor like Daniel Goleman. Right? Who wrote a seminal book called  
[00:21:01] Emotional Intelligence. Right? You've got all this discussion around this stuff. These  
[00:21:06] are skills. These are not things we're born knowing how to do. These are things like you  
[00:21:13] have to go out of your way and deliberately train to learn how to do it. Kind of like  
[00:21:21] riding a bike is not really a skill we're born with. Driving a car is not really a skill  
[00:21:27] we're born with. Doing algebra is not really an inherent innate skill for us. These are  
[00:21:35] mental trainings. Right? To some extent. And you need to get your psychology geared around  
[00:21:42] it a little bit. So the same thing would be true here. To the extent you think it's useful  
[00:21:49] in your own life.  
[00:21:54] What's the connection or is there a connection somehow between compassion and co-dependence?  
[00:22:01] Yeah, like just being a doormat. I heard this interesting thing once. I was at this dorm  
[00:22:08] and talked with this lama. This lama had actually been in a Chinese prison for 30 years and  
[00:22:15] had been tortured pretty routinely. And he was of such a mind that he was actually able  
[00:22:23] to use that horrendous experience as a way to practice. As a way to become more compassionate,  
[00:22:32] more open, more connected. Which I couldn't really get my head around at the time and  
[00:22:36] sometimes I still can't. And he was talking about compassion and that question came up.  
[00:22:45] It was around domestic violence. And the question was like say someone's in a domestic violence  
[00:22:52] situation and what should they do, like from a Buddhist perspective, what should they do?  
[00:22:59] And his answer was kind of shocking. He said, well it depends on your motivation. And so  
[00:23:04] if you were able to bear that experience and understand that you're purifying negative  
[00:23:09] karma and you're able to bear the ramifications of it in an ongoing way and use it in essence  
[00:23:14] as fuel for practice of compassion, then that would be like one of the best things that  
[00:23:20] you could do.  
[00:23:21] But is that just enabling the other person in whatever sickness he has that he wants  
[00:23:26] to beat you?  
[00:23:28] I mean you get a question like enabling. Is it enabling the perpetrator to continue to  
[00:23:34] perpetrate, right? Well maybe it's like an intricacy of karma. And if you can use it  
[00:23:39] as a way to cultivate compassion further up in your heart, then there would be like no  
[00:23:45] greater practice, was this lama's answer.  
[00:23:48] Which was like very shocking to the western audience, right?  
[00:23:51] He said on the other hand, if you can't bear it, right, and it would be more useful for  
[00:23:56] you to actually disconnect from this and to go away and to actually build a life that  
[00:24:02] would be healthier and to get a partner that wouldn't beat you, right, and to actually  
[00:24:09] gain some ground on your feet about your own personhood and to begin to connect in a different  
[00:24:15] way, that would be useful too.  
[00:24:18] Would it be like in that situation if one had compassion, would it be to the point where  
[00:24:25] you have nothing to attack anymore, you're open to it, and the other one recognizes there's  
[00:24:33] nothing to attack anymore because this person is being honest and upfront, would that change  
[00:24:38] the situation?  
[00:24:40] Yeah, it's kind of like he told the story, this particular teacher told the story, and  
[00:24:44] I think it's an interesting story. It kind of like flipped me on, but he said he was  
[00:24:53] in a cell and this one Chinese prison guard was in a military concentration camp. And  
[00:24:59] he said this one guard was kind of in charge of torturing him on a pretty regular basis.  
[00:25:05] And not for anything in particular, I mean, he's a Buddhist monk, so it's not like he  
[00:25:10] had high government intel about Tibet that they needed, right. It was just like he was  
[00:25:14] there and they were cruel, and so that's what they did to kind of pass the time. And so  
[00:25:23] at one point, this lama had come to a point of overwhelm with it, and he decided that  
[00:25:29] he wanted to die. But being a Buddhist, he couldn't kill himself because of the non-killing  
[00:25:34] of the vow of non-harm. So he was in this overwhelming confusion about this, he was  
[00:25:41] going to do suicide by guard. And so when the guard came in one day, he picked up his  
[00:25:49] tin that they used to serve the garbage that they were given to eat them, and threw it  
[00:25:55] at the guy and hit him in his face. And he thought he was pretty sure that that would  
[00:26:00] be enough, that now the guard was just going to go really crazy and just kill him. But  
[00:26:05] instead, the guard seemed to know what he was doing. This really gentle Buddhist monk  
[00:26:13] would throw something at his face, and he knew he had gotten to him, he knew he was  
[00:26:18] at a breaking point, and so instead he just smiled at him. And he said that was cruelty.  
[00:26:27] And he said at that moment, that is when he stopped being so overwhelmed, and he could  
[00:26:35] now have compassion for this guard, who was creating so much suffering and future misery  
[00:26:43] for himself, like out of this delusion of harming him so much. And that in fact perhaps  
[00:26:49] him being harmed like this was a purification of his karma, and that in fact it was happening,  
[00:26:56] this purification was happening at the expense of the guard. He was taking on a tremendous  
[00:27:02] quantity of suffering unto himself to purify this teacher. And if you flip the script on  
[00:27:08] him a little bit, you can see how he was seeing it. And so, Buddhist psychology can  
[00:27:15] go to these kinds of places that are extremely counterintuitive for us, and that don't seem  
[00:27:21] to make any sense at all.  
[00:27:24] So that simply allowing some abuse to happen, being in a doormat, and continuing that without  
[00:27:33] any sort of intent of improving either situation, isn't really the goal. The compassion is realizing  
[00:27:42] what state someone is in. If you can realize that an abuser does this out of their own  
[00:27:51] confusion, and try to turn that around into some sort of growth and improvement, then  
[00:27:57] that is the compassion, the compassionate act.  
[00:28:01] Compassion is not fear-based. It's not functioning mindlessly from this underlying tone of fear.
[00:28:09] And confusion. It's not that. It's actually present, it's actually engaged, it's actually  
[00:28:17] seeing things rather clearly, and making very deliberate choices about it. And it's very  
[00:28:24] flexible. You can move from one situation to the next, continuously, over and over again.  
[00:28:30] And you can engage on different levels with different people, depending on where they  
[00:28:34] are and what they might need. And so you become really quite skillful, because you can see  
[00:28:41] so well, you've gotten out of your own way for the most part. So all the fear and all  
[00:28:50] the stories that we create to keep ourselves kind of isolated and disconnected, all these  
[00:28:55] things might be gone. And now you're not afraid to connect. And when you connect, you can  
[00:29:02] see quite clearly what might be going on with somebody else. And so you're able to respond  
[00:29:08] in a way that might be meaningful to them.  
[00:29:11] I don't think I must not understand compassion, because it seems that in the situation that  
[00:29:20] you were saying, where say it's a husband who's drunk, and he gets violent when he's  
[00:29:25] drunk, and so he beats his wife. And it sounds like what you were saying is that really her  
[00:29:31] best path to take is not to discourage her from being her, because she's learning, she's  
[00:29:37] becoming more compassionate, she's becoming a better Buddhist, or whatever.  
[00:29:41] Yeah, only if she's aware of that.  
[00:29:43] What can I do for that person that would most help that person without giving up myself?  
[00:29:51] And that would be stopping and enabling that person. So it seems very different from what  
[00:29:55] you were saying.  
[00:29:56] Well, so it's not the best, so I'm not upholding that as being like the thing everyone should  
[00:30:02] do all the time. And I don't think that particular teacher was either. He was saying it depends  
[00:30:08] on where the person is, and it depends on how they're seeing the world, and what would  
[00:30:13] be useful for them. It's like 99% of the time, what a woman should do when she's in an abusive  
[00:30:20] situation is leave. She should get herself into a safe situation.  
[00:30:25] You can have compassion, but that doesn't mean you want to stay in that situation. You  
[00:30:30] can remove yourself, you can still have compassion and understand that this person really doesn't  
[00:30:35] know what we're doing, or how to act, or how to drive this and that, interact, and you  
[00:30:39] need to remove yourself. But you can still have an understanding as to why some of these  
[00:30:44] people are in that situation, and have compassion for them.  
[00:30:47] It seems to be important for us to have understanding, but that's empathy, that's what she was talking  
[00:30:53] about. Does compassion imply some kind of action?  
[00:30:57] Yeah, I think so. Most of the time. It implies like, it's like being willing to touch an  
[00:31:05] open wound in a sense. Being willing to go there to connect with someone else's pain.  
[00:31:10] And to do it in a genuine way, and without a lot of guardedness and armor around you.  
[00:31:18] And so you can kind of see more clearly what's going on with the person, and respond to it  
[00:31:23] more clearly. As opposed to being up here and looking down on someone with pity, or  
[00:31:28] just being totally disconnected with the apathy, and pretending like it's not happening at  
[00:31:33] all. So it's not denial, nor is it pity.  
[00:31:38] I think compassion and empathy is pretty close in the definition. It really doesn't matter  
[00:31:44] what term you use, the main thing is you're identifying with the other person, feeling  
[00:31:48] the pain, and having empathy or compassion, no matter what you call it.  
[00:31:53] You're reaching out to them with a feeling, and then understanding that pain.  
[00:31:59] No matter what you call it, empathy or compassion.  
[00:32:02] I think empathy too, like bringing it to a point where you can't function yourself while  
[00:32:06] being compassionate. Where it comes into you, you're feeling it so much that it's actually  
[00:32:11] affecting you in such a way that you can't, you don't function as you would normally.  
[00:32:16] Well I look at compassion as far as Buddhism and meditation as that.  
[00:32:21] You know, part of the thing is if you have compassion, the meditation comes greater to you.  
[00:32:29] You're connecting with the whole world, and through meditation you realize that yourself  
[00:32:34] is part of everybody else's self, and that you recognize that and just become aware of  
[00:32:39] humanity.  
[00:32:42] To some extent I think that's the case. It's useful to remember that from the Buddhist  
[00:32:48] perspective, compassion has a very specific definition.  
[00:32:53] Now in another culture, in another language, we might label that a bunch of different ways  
[00:32:57] and think that we understand it. But compassion from this perspective is really quite precise,  
[00:33:04] and it's very difficult to communicate. It's a complex concept to communicate the idea  
[00:33:11] of Buddhist compassion.  
[00:33:13] So then the key is being able to understand what someone else really needs.  
[00:33:19] If in an abusive situation, your goal is to stop the anger, and you know, leaving is the  
[00:33:30] best thing that needs to happen, but if staying were possible, so that you can reach somebody  
[00:33:40] and make them understand that their anger is out of control, and that needs to change,  
[00:33:45] then that's the most compassionate thing to do.  
[00:33:47] But what about compassion for yourself?  
[00:33:50] Absolutely, I mean you have to recognize what you do too.  
[00:33:54] Understanding is understandable, but not acceptable.  
[00:33:57] And I think that's where the 99% of people come down.  
[00:34:01] It's understandable you're in a rage, it's understandable you want to start a fight,  
[00:34:06] but I have compassion for myself and for my children, therefore my compassion for you  
[00:34:12] is overwritten actually, from my compassion for myself and the children.  
[00:34:17] Absolutely, absolutely, and then if staying in the situation just continues it, and doesn't  
[00:34:22] allow for any growth, then that's not a very compassionate thing to do at all.  
[00:34:27] Right.  
[00:34:28] You can have compassion, but you need to remove yourself from harm.  
[00:34:31] Yeah.  
[00:34:32] And you can have empathy, and understanding, and compassion, but you're not going to be  
[00:34:36] out of the situation by staying there.  
[00:34:38] Right.  
[00:34:39] Yeah, so, I mean, this is complicated.  
[00:34:43] You know, when you get down to like these areas of it, and these subtleties of emotional  
[00:34:49] states like compassion, it becomes difficult.  
[00:34:52] I mean, I'll give you another real common example that comes up routinely in my practice.  
[00:34:58] You take a woman who's been sexually assaulted.  
[00:35:01] You take a woman who's been raped.  
[00:35:04] And typically, like our usual reaction to that is we've been harmed and violated, which  
[00:35:11] is true, but there's this sense of like injustice to it usually from the Western perspective.  
[00:35:19] And so like when you would, you would, say you contact someone who's been raped, okay,  
[00:35:26] they've been sexually assaulted, and it's almost like they're, it's almost like they're  
[00:35:31] holding on to the violation of it.  
[00:35:34] And it's almost like they're looking for like justice to be delivered to the perpetrator.  
[00:35:39] And so it wouldn't be unusual to like hear a victim say, you know, until he was like  
[00:35:45] prosecuted and put in jail, until he got what was coming to him, like I couldn't, I couldn't  
[00:35:50] let go of the violation that had happened to me.  
[00:35:54] Right.  
[00:35:55] And then from like, from, if you look at it from a Buddhist perspective, that, that basic  
[00:36:01] dynamic doesn't make much sense.  
[00:36:04] Because like you would hold on to the sense of violation and victimhood, like not understanding  
[00:36:10] cause and effect, not understanding that at one point, like you must have created the  
[00:36:15] cause to experience this to happen.  
[00:36:18] Right.  
[00:36:19] And that you and this person actually have energy and karma together.  
[00:36:23] And that there's really no point in like becoming angry and like thinking that him  
[00:36:28] suffering is going to make you feel better somehow.  
[00:36:32] There's like, there's really no point in holding this dynamic as being so truthful.  
[00:36:38] Which is like very shocking thoughts from a Western perspective.  
[00:36:42] Right.  
[00:36:43] Because of course that seems foolish.  
[00:36:45] That seems stupid.  
[00:36:46] Right.  
[00:36:47] Of course, revenge is the way.  
[00:36:50] Like some criminal law in Thailand is totally different.  
[00:36:53] We're not talking about law.  
[00:36:55] I'm just shocked.  
[00:36:56] Yeah.  
[00:36:57] Well, it's unusual.  
[00:36:58] It's the same thing with Christianity.  
[00:36:59] To be shocked.  
[00:37:00] Forgiveness.  
[00:37:01] Forgiveness is not for the other person, so to say, it's for you to let go.  
[00:37:07] Yeah, so I mean, like this is really like, this stuff is, Buddhist psychology is asking  
[00:37:13] you to flip the script.  
[00:37:15] You know, to the extent that you can on the way you usually see things.  
[00:37:19] And it's like, so usually in that example with the sex assault, I need this person to  
[00:37:26] suffer before I can begin to feel better, before I can begin to heal.  
[00:37:32] This is just like another way of framing the idea of revenge.  
[00:37:36] When this person suffers, I'm going to start feeling better.  
[00:37:40] Like almost because this person is now suffering.  
[00:37:43] Because they're getting what's coming to them, kind of thing.  
[00:37:46] It could be really harmful to the person that was assaulted if that person is never caught.  
[00:37:50] Actually, it is really harmful.  
[00:37:52] I mean, if that person is never caught or brought to justice, then that person carries  
[00:37:56] that pain.  
[00:37:57] Yeah.  
[00:37:58] Well, any time you're carrying around this desire, like even on a subtle level to like,  
[00:38:03] you're going to be really invested in feeling good around someone else suffering and being  
[00:38:10] harmed, you're off track from the Buddhist perspective.  
[00:38:14] That doesn't make sense.  
[00:38:16] And you think you're doing yourself a favor, right?  
[00:38:19] Because that's just our natural kind of fallback position.  
[00:38:22] Is that, yeah, of course that person should suffer.  
[00:38:25] Of course they should hurt.  
[00:38:27] Pain should be delivered to them.  
[00:38:30] And when pain has been delivered to them, I can start to feel better a little bit, right?  
[00:38:34] That's our usual orientation.  
[00:38:36] Like from a Buddhist psychological perspective, that makes no sense.  
[00:38:41] You're actually harming yourself there, right?  
[00:38:44] By holding this attitude that really doesn't understand how this all works, right?  
[00:38:50] That there is cause and effect there.  
[00:38:53] And that you can actually flip the script on this and learn something and cultivate  
[00:38:57] compassion around that, instead of cultivating like disconnection and isolation and wrath.  
[00:39:03] So that's more of a compassion for yourself aspect.  
[00:39:06] You take it, look at it, embrace it, understand it, and then let it go.  
[00:39:14] Is it a Buddhist belief that we should co-create our own experience?  
[00:39:20] Oh, absolutely.  
[00:39:22] From the perspective of karma, there are absolutely no accidents.  
[00:39:27] That's one of my usual questions when I say I begin therapy with someone, right?  
[00:39:32] Do you believe in accidents? Do you believe in luck?  
[00:39:36] Or do you believe that things happen for a reason?  
[00:39:39] Because your answer to that question is more important than you might think it is.
[00:39:44] Because if you believe in luck, if you just believe that at a random interval,  
[00:39:50] the universe can just like take a crap on you,  
[00:39:54] and there's no rhyme or reason to it,  
[00:39:57] then it's going to be very difficult to make meaning from such a dynamic.  
[00:40:02] By default, you're putting yourself in a position of depression and victimization.  
[00:40:09] So I would say it's not a very useful belief.  
[00:40:14] And so on the other hand, if you believe there are no accidents in life,  
[00:40:18] and that everything happens for a reason, everything,  
[00:40:22] right down to the molecular level,  
[00:40:25] everything happens for a reason, that seems to be useful.  
[00:40:29] That's like something I can work with, because I'm actually involved in that process.  
[00:40:34] I'm actually co-creating, as you said, that process, in conjunction with all of you.  
[00:40:41] And if I'm creating it to some extent, and I'm not liking the results I'm getting now,  
[00:40:46] and I know that moving forward, or at least I believe that moving forward,  
[00:40:50] to the extent that what I do now creates a cause for what I will experience in the future,  
[00:40:55] then on that level, it's really quite powerful, it's quite helpful, really.  
[00:41:00] That I can actually create a much better future for myself.  
[00:41:04] If I can learn to work with my thoughts and emotions and judgments and opinions and beliefs now,  
[00:41:10] given that all of those mental phenomena create words and actions,  
[00:41:14] and my words and actions actually create the reality of my life,  
[00:41:18] if I can fix those, if I can make those healthier,  
[00:41:22] then my future will be healthier, by definition.  
[00:41:27] At least to some extent.  
[00:41:29] The other perspective, that things happen for no reason at all,  
[00:41:32] and everything is random, and based in suffering,  
[00:41:35] that's kind of a depressing way to look at it, actually.  
[00:41:40] And that there's injustice, and that you can be raped,  
[00:41:43] and your perpetrator will never be caught,  
[00:41:45] and you can never feel better until he suffers and burns.  
[00:41:49] This is very, ugh, you know?  
[00:41:52] Who wants to live there, really?  
[00:41:54] And that's that Western thinking of Manifest Destiny.  
[00:41:59] That you have no control.  
[00:42:03] Yeah, so...  
[00:42:06] Buddhism, Buddhist psychology, is very interested in causes to things.  
[00:42:12] Far less interested in some immediate effect.  
[00:42:16] Very interested in root causes.  
[00:42:19] Like, why do we suffer?  
[00:42:23] Why do things happen to us?  
[00:42:27] And so, invariably,  
[00:42:31] I love the fact that there are people who take time  
[00:42:35] out of their free time in their lives,  
[00:42:37] and come and sit and listen to this kind of thing.  
[00:42:41] Listen to this perspective, and even sit and be kind of shocked.  
[00:42:44] What? That doesn't make sense, right?  
[00:42:47] And work with it, and struggle with it, and wrestle with it.  
[00:42:50] In the hopes of gaining some greater clarity about this life we're all in.  
[00:42:55] I mean, people with such an inclination,  
[00:42:59] I admire and respect.  
[00:43:02] That's...  
[00:43:05] You're not just blending into the Matrix anymore.  
[00:43:08] You're really trying to figure out what this might be.  
[00:43:11] And how you can work with it.  
[00:43:13] And you're willing to be uncomfortable in that process to some extent.  
[00:43:17] It's really courageous.  
[00:43:20] I like that.  
[00:43:22] That was good reading.  
[00:43:24] The Matrix.